THE NEW....Wisdom In Torah Forum

1. 

   Woody
   Member
   Posted 2 months ago #
   

   The questions that follow are from Onkelos On The Torah by Israel Drazin and Stanley M. Wagner (Exodus page 163).

   The Bible commands us: "Keep far from a word of falsehood" (23:7). Truthfulness has always been regarded as one of the most important of virtues. One of the names accorded to God is Emet, "Truth." Yet, are there times when it is not a virtue to be truthful? Would it, for example, be more important to be compassionate than truthful? If two values clash, is there a priority hierarchy to which one may turn to establish which value takes precedence? What role does human subjectivity play in this determination?

   I look forward to hearing your opinions and insights.

2. 

   Yitz'ach
   Member
   Posted 2 months ago #
   

   Shalom Woody,

   Truth is NEVER out of style. It may take some tact to not hurt feelings, but truth is softer in the long run.

   Love and Blessings,

   Yitz'ach

3. 

   joegim
   Member
   Posted 2 months ago #
   

   Woody,

   How is a man suppose to answer this question?

   "Honey, do I look fat in this dress?"

   Truthful and suffer-the-consequences answer: yes
   Compassionate and prevent-from-getting-the-silent-treatment answer: Of course not! ;)

   Seriously, we are commanded to tell the truth because that is one of YHWH'S attributes. If we are not consistently truthful that damages our witness. People who are not truthful loose a lot of credibility. Just look at the politicians and the church leaders who continually emphasize the prosperity doctrine.

   One of the tenents of Rabbinical Judaism is that saving life takes precedence over all other commandments. Yeshua affirms this in the donkey falling in the pit on the Shabbat and the healing on the Shabbat examples. A great example is will you allow doctors to place a pig heart valve to save your life since that valve that doesn't require anticoagulation therapy unlike the mechanical valves? The people in Europe like Corrie Ten Boom who lied to the Nazis in order to save Jews did not sin. Aside from this example I can't think right now of a priority hierarchy to determine which value takes precedence. Human subjectivity I think plays an important role here but that subjectivity I refer to is that which is guided by Torah principles, not humanistic principles.

   Shalom.

4. 

   Teresa C.
   Moderator
   Posted 2 months ago #
   

   Shalom Woody,

   I remember reading something like this earlier on. It makes me smile to think of it.

   The story was a young man was so excited to be getting married and kept on talking about how beautiful his wife to be was. He was overcome with how much gladness he had and would talk of her virtues and striking beauty to any and everyone. When the time came for his groomsman to meet the young mans intended, he was shocked to see that she was not at all pretty, in fact it would have been kind to have called her 'plain'. Yet the groom was so enamored with her and shortly after introducing her to his best man, he asked him "Is she not the most beautiful woman you've ever seen?". To reply honestly, truthfully, would have caused irreparable and unnecessary hurt.

   What to do? Should he lie so as to keep a commandment we are told not to break, or tell the truth in order to stay inside of the law?....

   This would be a good place to ask, What would Yeshua Do?

   For myself, I think it goes to show that His laws are for our benefit. Justice or Truth without mercy and humility can easily become a means for not serving our heavenly Adonai and instead dispensing judgment/condemnation self-righteously in the name of HaShem.

   There is no set formula for ascertaining when and how to apply the balance of love to truth but find it we must. We can see how in some situations, one without the other can leave a residual of coldness and or hatefulness. It might even cause a little one to stumble.

   Too many people, I include myself, use the TRUTH to be 'right' and in the process fall short of righteousness.

   And herein starts our journey of becoming more like Him. :)

5. 

   Woody
   Member
   Posted 2 months ago #
   

   Thanks for the feedback everyone!

   Here are some of my thoughts on the subject. Yeshua said, Joh 17:17 KJV Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. In my mind, truth is not so much a virtue as it is a reality.

   Who is to guide us in truth? Joh 16:13 KJV Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

   What are the virtues associated with the Ruach? Gal 5:22-23 KJV But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, (23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

   Here are some scriptures that I used to tie in the idea of truth and how to apply it.

   Hos 4:1-2 KJV Hear the word of the LORD, ye children of Israel: for the LORD hath a controversy with the inhabitants of the land, because there is no truth, nor mercy, nor knowledge of God in the land. (2) By swearing, and lying, and killing, and stealing, and committing adultery, they break out, and blood toucheth blood.

   Psa 119:43-44 KJV And take not the word of truth utterly out of my mouth; for I have hoped in thy judgments. (44) So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever.

   Psa 138:2 KJV I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

   Joh 1:14 KJV And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

   2Ti 2:15 KJV Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

   With these scriptures in mind I see Mercy, Knowledge of the Word, Rightly dividing the Word, Living by what the Word teaches, Grace and Lovingkindness as key elements in proper judgement.

   How has Abba displayed these virtues in teaching us his truth? He has been kind, compassionate, longsuffering and patient. But most of all he has been loving. 1Co 13:12-13 HRB For now we see through a mirror in dimness, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will fully know even as I also am fully known. (13) And now faith, hope, and love, these three things remain; but the greatest of these is love.

   Love is the grease that will keep the wheel of learning Torah rolling.

   Shalom Shalom

6. 

   Teresa C.
   Moderator
   Posted 2 months ago #
   

   Thanks Woody,

   I really appreciate you emphasizing love!

   Gal 5:22-23 KJV But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, (23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

   1Co 13:12-13 HRB For now we see through a mirror in dimness, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will fully know even as I also am fully known. (13) And now faith, hope, and love, these three things remain; but the greatest of these is love.

   It just goes to show that the TRUTH is we all deserve death but because He LOVES us so much, He grants us both Grace and forgiveness.

   Baruch Ata Adonai!

7. 

   Woody
   Member
   Posted 2 months ago #
   

   Thanks Teresa,

   I like these quotes on love from the book God's Treasury Of Virtues.

   Second-Century Christians

   They love one another. They never fail to help widows; they save orphans from those who would hurt them. If they have something they give freely to the man who has nothing; if they see a stranger, they take him home, and are happy, as though he were a real brother. They don't consider themselves brothers in the usual sense, but brothers instead through the Spirit, in God.
   -Aristides describing Christians to the Emperor Hadria

   On Love of God

   "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, with thy whole soul and with thy whole mind." This is the commandment of the great God, and He cannot command the impossible. Love is a fruit in season at all times, and within reach of every hand. Anyone may gather it and no limit is set.
   -Mother Teresa

   Three Dimensions

   What then is the conclusion of the matter? Love yourself, if that means rational and healthy self-interest. You are commanded to do that. That is the length of life. Love your neighbor as you love yourself. You are commanded to do that. That is the breadth of life. But never forget that there is a first and even greater commandment: "Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all they soul, and with all thy mind." This is the height of life. Only by a painstaking development of all three of these dimensions can you expect to live a complete life.
   -Martin Luther King

8. 

   Woody
   Member
   Posted 2 months ago #
   

   I think it would also be prudent to mention the virtue of receiving correction or reproof. Here are some samples from the Sages taken from the Book of Legends Sefer Ha-Aggadah (pages 693-695).

   R. Yose bar Hanina said: Reproof leads to love, as is said, "Reprove a wise man, and he will love thee" (Prov. 9:8). Such is the opinion of R. Yose bar Hanina, who on another occasion said: All love that has no reproof with it is not true love.

   Resh Lakish said: Reproof leads to peace. Such is the opinion of the sage, who on another occasion said: All peace that has no reproof with it is not peace.

   R. Hanina said: Jerusalem was destroyed only because its inhabitants did not reprove one another, as is said, "Her princes are become like harts that find no pasture" (Lam 1:6). Like harts, each of whose head is beside the tail of the one before it, so did Israel of that generation keep their faces looking toward the ground and not reprove one another.

   Love him who reproves you, and hate him who praises you.

   R. Eleazar ben Azariah said: I wonder whether there is anyone in this generation capable of accepting reproof. R. Akiva said: I wonder whether there is anyone in this generation who knows how to give reproof [without humiliating the one reproved].

   Reprove a wise man and he will love you. (Prov 9:8)

9. 

   Ryan White
   עבד (Servant)
   Posted 2 months ago #
   

   I think it may be good to do a word study on 'emet' to determine what exactly is truth. We are admonished to speak the truth and not lie, this is true, but are we understanding these verses in Hebrew context. Case in point, YHWH tells Mosheh at the burning bush that Mosheh is to lead Yisrael out of Mitrayim to the promised land. Yet, when Mosheh comes before Pharaoh, YHWH instructs him to tell Pharaoh that he (Mosheh) simply wants to take the Yisraelites out into the wilderness for 3 days in order to sacrifice. Was YHWH commanding Mosheh to lie?

   I think that the key is love and understanding. The command given in the Ten Sayings is not to bear false witness against your neighbor. To me, this seems to imply that that you should not tell a lie that would do harm to others (since everyone is our neighbor).

   I'll have to look into the Hebrew word and see what I can come up with.

   Shalom,
   Ryan

10. 

    ammi
    Member
    Posted 2 months ago #
    

    Maybe if somoene asks if they looked fat in the dress (i.e.), the most truthful answer would be: "Do you think you look fat in it? If you like the dress, what you think is most important, not someone else. If you think you look fat in it, then do what you need to change that. I think you are beautiful, regardless" Like Ryan inferred, bearing false witness is what I believe He means. Truth is scripture. And the root of a question like "do I look fat in this dress?", is not the surface issue at hand. The surface issue at hand is: the person who asks probably wants to be validated by someone because of low self esteem. Truth isn't OUR opinion - Truth is YHWH's opinion. When saying "speak the truth", I don't think they are talking about our opinion, I think they are talking about YHWH's. (hmph, just learned something!! :) )

11. 

    ammi
    Member
    Posted 2 months ago #
    

    In rereading original, keep far from a word of falsehood, keep far from people's opinions that do not line up with the Word.

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