THE NEW....Wisdom In Torah Forum

1. 

   joegim
   Member
   Posted 2 months ago #
   

   It’s that time of the year where we are anticipating the Pesach celebration signaling the start of the new year. At all Jewish and many Messianic Seders an extra cup is placed called “Elijah’s Cup”. The reasoning for that is explained by this article from the Jewish Book of Why:

   Why is a special goblet, the cup of Elijah, placed on the Seder table?

   After the Grace After Meals has been recited, a goblet that has become known as the the Cup of Elijah is filled with wine. Elijah was the great prophet of Israel who dominated the Palestinian scene about twenty-eight centuries ago. He was the conscience of Israel in the days of sinful King Ahab and his wicked wife, Queen Jezebel.

   In time, the name and person of Elijah became synonymous in Judaism with the Messianic age. According to TRADITION, Elijah did NOT DIE: he ASCENDED TO HEAVEN in a chariot and vanished. His return has been anticipated by generations of Jews ever since.

   Elijah’s return, some Jews believe, will mark the advent of an age of harmony, peace, and understanding among all peoples and nations. The cup of wine placed on the Seder table symbolizes that Elijah would be a welcome guest.

   Why is the front door opened for Elijah during the Seder?

   The opening of the front door expresses the willingness and readiness of the Seder participants to bring the Messianic Age into their lives. It reflects the belief that the Messianic Age might come at any time.

   I have some questions regarding this tradition because:

   Elijah did not go to heaven as the Scriptures states:

   John 3:13 And NO MAN hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

   If Elijah did not go to heaven, the where is he right now?

   Heb 11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of THE PROPHETS (this includes Elijah):
   Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, RECEIVED NOT THE PROMISE:

   Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

   Elijah is in the grave right now awaiting the resurrection of the redeemed at Yeshua’s return. Therefore I see no logic in placing an extra cup for Elijah. And besides it is Yeshua’s return, not Elijah’s that will usher a world of harmony, peace, and understanding.

2. 

   Teresa C.
   Moderator
   Posted 2 months ago #
   

   Shalom Joegim,

   Excellent question and worthy of looking into for sure, which I haven't... But, I am in the process of listening to Rico on this last weeks Torah Parasha and he addresses the question you have asked.

   Here is the session of Mishpatim and he addresses it in the 1st of 3 videos at around 30 minutes into the course. http://wisdomintorah.com/torah-portion-mishpatim-exodus-211-24/

   Basically, what I got out of it was that Elijah is representative of the coming and of the spirit of Messiah during the Passover, we want to welcome Messiah into our homes and we do it by setting the extra place and open door for Him (Threshold Covenant).

   I am sure it is worthy of a deep study;

   Mal 4:5-6 KJV
   (5) Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
   (6) And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

   Since this did not happen during the first coming of our Messiah, it is yet to be realized. Remember they asked John the Baptist if it was he...

3. 

   joegim
   Member
   Posted 2 months ago #
   

   Boker Tov Teresa,

   Didn't Yeshua state that John the Baptizer is Elijah in:

   Mat 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
   Mat 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and RESTORE all things.
   Mat 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias IS COME ALREADY, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
   Mat 17:13 Then the disciples UNDERSTOOD that he spake unto them of John the Baptizer.

   The Jews were certainly aware of that Malachi passage and Yeshua in this instance, I think, certainly points out that John came in the spirit and boldness as Elijah in that they both challenged the religious leadership of their times.

   Verse 11 says that he will RESTORE all things. I'm not exactly sure what that means but I believe that means going back to Torah without the burden of man made commandments (those contrary to Torah). In a sense that is happening today as the Spirit of Elohim has awakened a lot of believers' minds to further look into YHWH's words and not just stick to church or denominational teachings/doctrines.

   Shalom.

4. 

   Dustin
   Member
   Posted 2 months ago #
   

   I am approaching my first passover seder and I have been trying to learn as much as possible about the subject so I am interested where this topic goes.

   As far as Elijah ascending into heaven, all I will do is reference the verse. I will leave interpretation to the reader. II Kings 2: 11 "And it came to pass, as they sill went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."

   As far as the cup goes, I assumed that the extra cup and place was for the Spirit of God with whom the covenant meal is with, and not the person of Elijah. Is this a correct understanding? Ex 12:23 "For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you." Just as He passed into their homes then, we welcome Him now, right?

   Also, though John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah, he did not come before the great and dreadful day of the lord, as stated in Malachi. Maybe that is the distinction that we should be looking at? Like joegim said, I believe the "spirit of Elijah" is already at work in the world restoring the true faith among the remnant. Hallelujah!

5. 

   Teresa C.
   Moderator
   Posted 2 months ago #
   

   I just found this on Eddie Chumney's site and it details further, I believe, what Dustin says and what I had thought to say, namely that John the Baptist was a type of Elijah. I say that because all has yet to be restored Mth 17:11.

   What I find real interesting is that Eddie states that 1 of the 2 witnesses will be in the personification of Elijah as well!

   THE CUP OF ELIJAH

   A special cup is filled with wine/grapejuice and placed on the Passover table. It is called, the Cup of Elijah. This cup is to teach you that before Messiah's second coming, Elijah the prophet will prepare His way. -- Malachi 4:5-6

   At the first coming of Yeshua/Jesus, Elijah is personified by the person of John the Baptist. He is not literally Elijah but of the spirit and power -- anointing -- of Elijah. -- Luke 1:17. Likewise, one of the two witnesses spoken of in Revelation 11, will be an individual like John the Immerser/Baptist who personifies the spirit and power -- anointing -- of Elijah during the tribulation period, but prior to the second coming of Yeshua/Jesus when He sets His foot down upon the Mount of Olives. -- Zechariah 14:4

   http://www.hebroots.org/passover_haggadah.htm#THE_CUP_OF_ELIJAH_

   Do you plan to put out an extra cup of wine?

   http://www.hebroots.org/passover_audio.htm#The_Principles_and_Themes_of_Passover_

6. 

   oilofgladness
   Member
   Posted 2 months ago #
   

   Dustin, consider this passage:

   2 Chronicles 21:12-15 NASB
   (12) Then a letter came to him from Elijah the prophet saying, "Thus says the LORD God of your father David, 'Because you have not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat your father and the ways of Asa king of Judah,
   (13) but have walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and have caused Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to play the harlot as the house of Ahab played the harlot, and you have also killed your brothers, your own family, who were better than you,
   (14) behold, the LORD is going to strike your people, your sons, your wives and all your possessions with a great calamity;
   (15) and you will suffer severe sickness, a disease of your bowels, until your bowels come out because of the sickness, day by day.'"

   If you read the commentaries and understand the timeline, you will find that Elijah was not carried off to heaven, but was taken up and moved to another location, similarly as was in Philip's case:

   Acts 8:39-40 NASB
   (39) When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch no longer saw him, but went on his way rejoicing.
   (40) But Philip found himself at Azotus, and as he passed through he kept preaching the gospel to all the cities until he came to Caesarea.

   This is the best fit with the other verses mentioned by joegim.

   As far as the cup goes, if you understand that it's a tradition, and that there's more to the story than meets the eye with this "spirit of Elijah" and are not expecting the prophet to show up at your doorstep, then you're probably alright. But sometimes kids don't understand this, and they get confused.

   Remember, when you're dead, you're dead. Until you're resurrected. All else is man's fabrication.

7. 

   Dustin
   Member
   Posted 2 months ago #
   

   Teresa, I basically just reworded what you said so no worries! Look forward to checking out Eddie's stuff.

   Thanks oil! I had not really done any real study of the Elijah issue, but I thought others might like to see the verse that joegim was referencing. I do like the connection you make between Elijah and Philip! I would have never seen that

   I hear you about the death topic too, no arguments here. I have had that "discussion" with many people, including my wife.

   Not to get off the topic, but, since you mention children and passover, I know that part of passover is teaching children and inviting people over for the seder. However, we do not have any kids ourselves and do not have any local torah observant believers to invite. Any thoughts or advice on passover for two? I imagine it's been done before :)

   Shalom!

8. 

   joegim
   Member
   Posted 2 months ago #
   

   Dustin,

   2Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven (H8064 "shamayim").

   Now let us look up other passages where this word "shamayin" is used:

   Gen 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of HEAVEN(shamayim) were opened.

   Job 35:11 Who teacheth us more than the beasts of the earth, and maketh us wiser than the fowls of HEAVEN(shamayim)?

   Jer 16:4 They shall die of grievous deaths; they shall not be lamented; neither shall they be buried; but they shall be as dung upon the face of the earth: and they shall be consumed by the sword, and by famine; and their carcases shall be meat for the fowls of HEAVEN(shamayim), and for the beasts of the earth.

   From those passages we learn that the word "shamayim" translated as "heaven" was referring to the area where the clouds are and where birds fly. Elijah was taken NOT into YHWH's throne but that we was "airlifted" to another place. Now consider these verses:

   2Ki 2:16 And they said unto him, Behold now, there be with thy servants fifty strong men; let them go, we pray thee, and seek thy master: lest peradventure the Spirit of the LORD hath taken him up, and cast him upon some mountain, or into some valley. And he said, Ye shall not send.
   2Ki 2:17 And when they urged him till he was ashamed, he said, Send. They sent therefore fifty men; and they sought three days, but found him not.

   These verse clearly state that Elijah was "airlifted" either to a mountain or valley. This also shows that this was not the first time Elijah had done this so they were not surprised and looked for him.

   2Ch 21:12 And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,

   Here again Elijah sends a letter to King Jehoram. Jehoram is the son of Jehoshaphat, the reigning king when Elijah went up by a whirlwind. So several years after that event Elijah was still somewhere on this earth.

   And as I said in my first post ALL the saints are still waiting for the resurrection, including Elijah.

   Some Messianics have no issue with the Elijah Cup during Pesach but I have an issue because it is based on false doctrine. It is based on the assumption that Elijah is still alive and in heaven contrary to Scripture. Some may argue that it is okay since I'm placing a different meaning to it. Is then placing a different meaning to Christmas and Easter other than the original pagan ones makes them acceptable?

   We have inherited a lot of good traditions from our Jewish brethren but we are not to follow them if there is no Biblical basis.

   Shalom.

9. 

   Dustin
   Member
   Posted 2 months ago #
   

   Yo! Just thought I should clear up that I am not of the mind that Elijah was taken up into heaven and never died. I merely wanted to post the verse for those who would have liked to have the reference. That said, I agree with what you're saying and appreciate the references and obvious study you have done on the subject. Very edifying! I also hold to the belief that death = sleep, for the dead know nothing, and all wait for either the first or second resurrection. Only those who survive to the second advent not see the dust of the grave.

   I also, see your point about the tradition as well. My self being only 8 months into this, I do not want to trade Christian tradition for Jewish ones.

   I know this thread is about the tradition of Elijah's Cup, but isn't the entire seder practically all from Rabbinic tradition? This will be my first Passover, and, when I was learning about the seder, it all struck me as very foreign & extra Biblical. There is no egg, Afikomen, dipping parsley in salt water, Hillel sandwich, etc. in scripture. Why do we do these things? Shouldn't we, perhaps, observe something more like a Karaite Passover???

   Peace!

10. 

    shepherdess7
    Member
    Posted 1 month ago #
    

    I am confused. Where is it in Scripture that we are to set out a cup for anyone? I agree with Dustin. Yahuah said that we are not to take on the traditions of men. Shamuth 12:8 and they shall eat the flesh on that night, roasted in fire - with Matsuth (unleavened bread) and with Marur (bitter herbs) - Wyqra 23:4-8 These are the appointed times of Yahuah, set-apart gatherings which you are to proclaim at their appointed times. In the first hadash (new)moon on the 14th day of the Hadash moon, between the evenings is the Pasah to Yahuah. And on the 15th day of this new moon is the feast of Matsuth to Yahuah seven days you eat unleavened bread. MathathYahu 26: And it came to be when Yahusha ended all these words, He said to the taught ones, You know that after two days the Pasah takes place and the Son of Adam is to be delivered up to be impaled......And on the 1st day (Pasah) the taught ones came to Yahusha saying to Him, where do You want us to prepare for you to eat Pasah?.....And as they were eating, Yahusha took bread and having said thanks, broke and gave it to the taught ones and said "Take, eat this is MY body." and taking the cup and giving thanks, He gave it to them, saying "DRINK from it, all of you. For this is MY blood, that of the renewed covenant, which is shed for many for the forgiveness of sins..And having sung a song, they went out to the Mount of Olives...Yahuchanan 13:4-rose from supper and laid aside His garments, and having taken a towel He girded Himself. After that He put water into a basin and began to wash the feat of the taught ones and to wipe them with the towel with which He was girded....And so He came to Shimun Kapah and he said to HIM, Master, do You wash my feet? Yahusha answered and said to him, You do not know what I am doing now, but you shall know after this." Kapha said to HIm, by no means shall YOu wash my feet, ever! Yahusha answered him, If I don't wash you, you have no part in Me. Shimun Kapha said to Him, Master not my feet only, but also my hands and my head! Yahusha said to him, "he who has a bath does not need to wash, except his feet, but is clean altogether. And you are clean, but not all of you." For He knew who would deliver Him up, so He said "You are not all clean." So when He had washed their feet and taken His garments, and sat down again, He said to them, "Do you know what I have done to you?" You call me Teacher and Master, and you say well for I am. Then if I, Master and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet. For I gave you an example, that you should do as I have done to you. Truly, truly I say to you, as servant is not greater than the master,nor is the emissary greater than he who sent him. Luke 22:19 and taking bread, giving thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, "this is MY body which is given for you, do this in remembrance of ME." There is nothing in Scripture that states that we are to set a particular plate on the table, or a cup at an empty seat. We have to remember that the scribes and the pharisees where want to add their own traditions to our worship and obedience of Yahuah. Yahusha said that we have to exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees and that we are not bound by the traditions and doctrines of man, but only by the Word of Yahuah. Most of these extra add ons were babylonian observances in their worship of Asharah and her son Tammuz. I see no reason why we would adhere to them.

11. 

    oilofgladness
    Member
    Posted 1 month ago #
    

    Bitter herbs, matza, lamb (Exodus 12); that's what's on our seder plates.

    As far as the seder being a tradition, I say only that not all traditions are bad. We are told to memorialize the Pesach, and so there are traditional ways of doing that. Adding eggs? No. Charoset as mortar? Not so bad, imho. But was Messiah enjoying the seder with his talmidim?

    John 13:1-2 CJB
    (1) It was just before the festival of Pesach, and Yeshua knew that the time had come for him to pass from this world to the Father. Having loved his own people in the world, he loved them to the end.
    (2) They were at supper, and the Adversary had already put the desire to betray him into the heart of Y'hudah Ben-Shim`on from K'riot.

    It was just before Pesach, and they were having supper. Some say he had a "rehearsal" Pesach with His talmidim, because He knew He would be impaled before long. Does this mean Messiah added to the tradition of the seder? We have not yet received the light on that, yet. Praying.

RSS feed for this topic

Reply

You must log in to post.